Curse

Silmor · Aug 15, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Protective Bond and Protective Spirit use a similar mechanic, and both need to be addressed I think.

To all the merry 55/105 milkers outraged at someone suggesting a nerf to their latest cash cow, and demanding to know how their actions have any effect on others - let's not kid around, we both know you don't give a damn about ruining other people's fun as long as your purse is full, so even if I bothered to dig up the many threads discussing just how such one-sided farming influences people who don't participate in it and link them here, you probably wouldn't bother to actually read them anyway, and if you did (and you clearly haven't, since this very thread already contains some discussion on the subject you could've responded to), you simply wouldn't care in the end. Let's not waste eachother's time.

Scol · Aug 15, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Just a few points on some earlier posts. Ecto now costs what it does now NOT because of farming but rather because what ANet did with the trader merge and the price caps. The economy was formerly the way it was with skyrocketing prices because of how the old code worked with the economy. No one was selling to the trader cuz they gave crappy quotes for the sell, so they sold in game. People still bought from the trader who's supply diminished and this caused trader prices to rise to the heights that they did. Plus there were those people that were affecting the market on purpose by buying out the traders when they had stock in items, and then selling them at the increased prices.

This build can only solo certain areas of the game, but so could other builds. At this point I don't see it as impacting the game too much other than the ability to unlock runes fairly well compared to other players, but that is something they've been needing to address for a while (PvP, especially). Economically, they get a nice money gain, but its not like they can influence the market since everything is fixed and as long as the traders remain in stock, which I believe will stabilize as time passes and everyone adapts. They help the market in some ways by providing a supply when the trader is out of stock.

The main thing I've been saying in other threads is that this is NOT the only farming build. It just happens to be a popular one that was advertised and spread like wildfire. There are people who ride other farming builds and make a nice profit just the same. Shall we nerf those as well? And if this build were to fall and another arise, would everyone be so quick to cry nerf?

If it affected PvP, I would definitely call for a balance as balance is more of an issue there than in PvE. And the only thing I think needs a look in PvP right now is spirits.

I think ANet could go either way. We'll just have to wait and see what they think.

SisterMercy · Aug 16, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

The really sad part to all of this discussion is that if everyone that wants a nerf gets what they want the ultimate result will be fewer monks...

Doesn't matter: we now have fewer healing monks and more Ubermonks who work their way into a PuG -- with the team thinking they're healing, while instead they're really there to show off and get cheap admission.

Today, I was able to see one of those Ubermonks die, and with their DP putting them at negative health, they were impossible to rez. That was priceless.

Frustrations aside, I'd like to see Mesmers and maybe Necros beefed up a touch so that every profession has an opportunity for glory. Plus, maybe Sorrow's Furnace (when it comes out) can have some spirit-build characters and more casters. Anything to mix it up a bit, and put more emphasis on these professions.

As for farming, I'm still hoping for the auction house idea. If for no other reason, it would be a better way to work player trading into the economy, and have those statistics better reflected in the buying and selling prices for things. I believe that's a better long-term solution to farming and frustration than nerfing everything.

(On the PvE side, anyway. There's still the PvP ramifications of Nature's Renewal and the like, for different issues.)

BigTru · Aug 16, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

My Necromancer can solo most of the Ring of Fire.
Monks can solo most of the UW.

Big whooped. Don't nerf the spell, because the spell isn't overpowered. If you want to comlpain about something, you should complain about how this entire game is a cake-walk, IMO.

You want to fix it? How about giving UW creatures secondaries? Have Aatxes or Grasping Darknesses bring Rend Enchantment. But for the love of god, just because some spells are overpowered in a few areas of the game, don't nerf it.

If you want to nerf spells just because they are more advantagous to one area of the game, how bout nerfing winter? Or how about Bone Horrors? God knows I had fun with those in the jungles. Let's nerf sprint/charge! Wouldn't want to have somebody running around getting ::gasp:: infused, now would we? Or mabey we should nerf Life Syphon? Wouldn't want Necroes soloing most of the Ring of Fire, now would we?

PaiNx · Aug 16, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Sorry to say, but I don't horde my money and such like some do. I end up giving out alot of things to random ppl, and I do my solo runs like most ppl. To say that the solo ppl are ruining the economy. Sorry to say it is the other way around. I end up putting alot of items and materials back into the system. How does that hurt the other players...hmm It don't

I am sure there are some ppl thath have ran into me in Ascalon. Running around giving out items gold and such. If you see Divine Soul Healer in Ascalon you bet I am giving things out to random ppl.

Silmor · Aug 16, 2005, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

You want to fix it? How about giving UW creatures secondaries? Have Aatxes or Grasping Darknesses bring Rend Enchantment. But for the love of god, just because some spells are overpowered in a few areas of the game, don't nerf it.

As Dazzler pointed out, why screw over people playing the game in a normal fashion just because the solo'ers are making a problem out of themselves? We've already seen global enchantment removal introduced, making incidental enchantments such as conjures useless for a large part of the game. Echo echo. Do you people even bother to read the thread?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaiNx

I am sure there are some ppl thath have ran into me in Ascalon. Running around giving out items gold and such. If you see Divine Soul Healer in Ascalon you bet I am giving things out to random ppl.

Yeah yeah, you're a regular Robin Hood, that's why there's nothing wrong with abusing Protective Bond, you're abusing it for good ends! I'm sure everyone is just as righteous as you are.

Phades · Aug 16, 2005, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

I knew someone was eventually going to say that. I was being overly broad in my use of "healing" to include mitigation, etc ie. anything that trumps damage is healing. Next time, I'll be more specific.

The problem is that healing trumps damage for use and is able to be ramped up on top of that, in addition to all of the most effective forms of damage diffusal lying within one class as well. Then you combine that with a skill line that emphasises in bypassing damage reduction and defenses. One of these things need to get reeled back in or removed, perhaps both

.

Irongate · Aug 16, 2005, 03:52 AM // 03:52

/Signed

Anet, stop worrying about the little things and get on to stopping these significant and obvious errors with the game. Oh, and btw, don't create anymore errors either thanks.

BigTru · Aug 16, 2005, 05:52 AM // 05:52

So mabey we should nerf Warriors, Monks, and Elementalists? Not all professions can solo Griffons. Not all professions can do runs.

I still fail to see how they are "ruining the economy".

coleslawdressin · Aug 16, 2005, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

I transformed my Mo/W into a <very> bastardized version of the standard 55/105 monk build. I also have multiple armor sets so, if desired, I can function as a real monk.

Basically the only real reason I have this farming character is for 15k armor (and possibly a little dye for it) for my 3 PvE characters

/signed

I must say that he is right. ^^

This game is incredibly boring with the 4 character slots (not 8?)

Lets see.. I can solo uw and get the ecto for the totally meaningless fissure armor.. or just farm wherever and get rich

do some pvp.. oh it is incredibly inbalanced.. well hope is on the way..

I hope to see guild wars be more exciting in the future

Gwenhywar · Aug 16, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Regardless of how harmless you think it is, and how harmless every user thinks it is, it's being made into a problem by the sheer numbers of people using this.

and why exactly is it a problem? Why is it a problem for you, that someone else can solo a place you do not? Why should ANYONE bother what someone else is doing in PvE? ANet already separated us in different instances ... so that NOTHING someone else does in the field influences what YOU do on that same field. If you don't like farming ... well, don't! There are so many things to do in this game. Do what YOU like! So long as it doesn't screw other people's game (like, for example, rune botters).

Truth is, many people just like to complain, for the sport of it. A while ago the favourite whine was how "unfair" Droknar runners are (with the true message behind all the whines being "they are making too much cash! why don't I?"). Now the hottest new trend is to complain about the invinci-monks. Power-mesmers beware, you'll be next!

calling a monk farmer "greedy" because he's enjoying his game in a different way that you? Maybe we should call "greedy" those posters that like to count money in other player's storage chests, instead of making their own. Maybe I should call American-server based players greedy for hogging the favor all the time - give us Euros more space!

Irongate · Aug 16, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

So mabey we should nerf Warriors, Monks, and Elementalists? Not all professions can solo Griffons. Not all professions can do runs.

I still fail to see how they are "ruining the economy".

LoL, love to see your ele build that can solo the UW.

audioaxes · Aug 16, 2005, 07:26 AM // 07:26

dont worry guys, im sure Anets gonna throw in more enchant removals

Phades · Aug 16, 2005, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

So mabey we should nerf Warriors, Monks, and Elementalists? Not all professions can solo Griffons. Not all professions can do runs.

I still fail to see how they are "ruining the economy".

Actually i would find it difficult to see a class combination that couldnt manage to solo griffons. Every proffesion has anti-warrior solutions.

mooseuk · Aug 16, 2005, 01:13 PM // 13:13

How about giving us the ability to see who is a 55/115 build, then we can choose if we want them in our PUGs or not.

Silmor · Aug 16, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

and why exactly is it a problem? Why is it a problem for you, that someone else can solo a place you do not? Why should ANYONE bother what someone else is doing in PvE? ANet already separated us in different instances ... so that NOTHING someone else does in the field influences what YOU do on that same field. If you don't like farming ... well, don't! There are so many things to do in this game. Do what YOU like! So long as it doesn't screw other people's game (like, for example, rune botters).

This could be true for a player who does not ever sell anything to a trader, who never trades gold or items with other players, and even then, ArenaNet needs to keep a balance in how an average player earns money, to determine the weight of their money sinks in order to safeguard the economy. If one or two professions can earn a multitude on their own of what other classes can earn in a group, that means that on average those solo professions will be skewing the money balance upward, and prices will increase to reflect their buying power, not those of people playing the game normally. It's like a shoplifter stealing things from a store thinking he's not bothering any other customers, but in reality prices are forced up every time he steals something. You think you're not affecting anyone, the reality is different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

Truth is, many people just like to complain, for the sport of it. A while ago the favourite whine was how "unfair" Droknar runners are (with the true message behind all the whines being "they are making too much cash! why don't I?"). Now the hottest new trend is to complain about the invinci-monks. Power-mesmers beware, you'll be next!

Hottest trend? I addressed this issue over a month ago, before most people even knew about this kind of abuse. Here's some truth for you: people want cheap ways to get rich quick, without a single care who is affected by their methods. I can respect that. The dishonesty and righteous squirming about it I could do without.

Yamat · Aug 16, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

If one or two professions can earn a multitude on their own of what other classes can earn in a group, that means that on average those solo professions will be skewing the money balance upward, and prices will increase to reflect their buying power, not those of people playing the game normally.

The buying power of a minority does not affect prices. Only if the same farmers were hoarding what they farm (ecto) would it affect prices, and indications are they are not.

Silmor · Aug 16, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Who said anything about a minority? Look at the sheer number of Mo/W and Mo/X characters in Temple of Ages. Look at the cost of superior monk runes before the trader reset, each hovering around 80k where the rest was below 10k, most even being under 1k. Minorities don't influence prices, you say? How people play their game doesn't affect others, right?

If this was a minority it wouldn't be a problem, but everybody and their uncle appear to be hopping on the 55/105 bandwagon. And why shouldn't they - got to milk it while it lasts, right? Even if it was a minority, I'd like to see more PvE balance to ensure new players to enter a semi-balanced game, where you actually need to work as a team to defeat challenges. If you don't like that sort of thing, why are you playing in the first place? WoW is there for you.

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 16, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Who said anything about a minority? Look at the sheer number of Mo/W and Mo/X characters in Temple of Ages. Look at the cost of superior monk runes before the trader reset, each hovering around 80k where the rest was below 10k, most even being under 1k. Minorities don't influence prices, you say? How people play their game doesn't affect others, right?

If this was a minority it wouldn't be a problem, but everybody and their uncle appear to be hopping on the 55/105 bandwagon. And why shouldn't they - got to milk it while it lasts, right? Even if it was a minority, I'd like to see more PvE balance to ensure new players to enter a semi-balanced game, where you actually need to work as a team to defeat challenges. If you don't like that sort of thing, why are you playing in the first place? WoW is there for you.

This conversation seems to be going around in circles. If everyone is doing it, then what's the problem? Apparently everyone doesn't seem to mind. If not everyone is doing it, then it's a select few that are causing problems.

But placing blame on farmers for pricing and inflation is wrong, the majority of the blame (if you want to call it blame) are the multimillionaires that buy out traders low, then wait for the prices to skyrocket while everyone else scrambles onto the purchasing bandwagon, then floods the market with their goods, then moves onto a different commodity. That is why you see such wildly swiging prices, lack of availability of items, and the rich getting richer. And the uber rich don't get that way via just farming, there are plenty of people that made their cash via sigil trading, droknar running, whatever.

Why do you think blue ink, of all things, suddenly became a hot commodity? What did everyone do at the price reset? Farm? No, they bought globs and shards. Suddenly, it's not just MONK superior runes, it's ALL superior runes. Superior Vigors start the day at 49K, and end up around 85K, just to drop back down again. It's morons spending 100s of thousands of gold for the most coveted storm bows just because it's cool looking.

I should know - our guild went from a bunch of guys scrambling to farm fur squares and feeling proud to break 100K, to suddenly being millionaires, where 100K was NOTHING, buying stupid crap like Steve Martin in "The Jerk", and thinking they were hot wall street commodities day traders - except for pork bellies and frozen concentrated orange juice it's black dyes and crafting materials. And all of this happened within a week period. And we're not the only ones, it's amazingly common, but not much talked about.

Everyone complains about bots, and farming, but the commodity market is where the real money is at. All you need is a small bankroll, and you're golden.

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 16, 2005, 09:09 PM // 21:09

How many pugs can you get for UW that actually want to explore? None? Correct.

The UW monk lets you play the game like pre-searing and actually have stress free fun for the first time in two months.

Here's what I'll do. I will leach any Non-monk class through the solo UW just becuase I have nothing better to do.

Requirments: Armor set with 5 sup runes. 500 gold to pay your weight in. Brains.

PM me